DSP Robotics Support

trogluddite wrote:If I haven't scared you off already with my horror stories, I'm going to enjoy having you around, I think.

Thanks. I'm a bit of a serial hobbyist, so if/when I suddenly disappear, it will probably be due to the presence of some new Bright Shiny Thing, rather than anything said here.

@tulamide
When I get my head out of the clouds, I don't doubt that you're right. It certainly made me very happy to see MyCo working on FS when I came back from my couple of years away, and I have nothing but respect for his dedication, that's for sure! And yes, whatever bad taste the SM forum shut-down left in my mouth, I do understand that it was part of a bid to keep SM/FS alive and to put food on Malc's table. Like I said earlier, I was working in a related industry, so I've seen what kind of compromises have to be made to woo investors/partners, and how dog-eat-dog it can be bidding for winner-takes-all educational contracts. I never had any argument with Malc about that. And wish-lists require resources!

When I said that I don't have confidence in DSPr's plans for the future, I mean those kind of essential business compromises being unpredictable, not to demean Malc's personal integrity (granted, it was a poor choice of words - I have a bad habit of putting my point across more strongly than I mean to). I wouldn't have worked so closely with him as a tester for as long as I did if I didn't realise that a developer's perspective is very different from mine as a user. And he was kind enough to forgive me for some of the nasty things I said at the height of the SM forum shut-down (I resigned as a moderator so that I didn't have to ban myself!) I still wish Malc well.

As for my "what if" dreaming - that's at least partly motivated by still enjoying using FS just as it is and seeing the potential in its concept. It's always easier to criticise the ones we love because we're so much more familiar with them, that's all! Well, that and being greedy and slowly turning into a grumpy old man!

trogluddite wrote:@tulamide
When I get my head out of the clouds, I don't doubt that you're right. It certainly made me very happy to see MyCo working on FS when I came back from my couple of years away, and I have nothing but respect for his dedication, that's for sure! And yes, whatever bad taste the SM forum shut-down left in my mouth, I do understand that it was part of a bid to keep SM/FS alive and to put food on Malc's table. Like I said earlier, I was working in a related industry, so I've seen what kind of compromises have to be made to woo investors/partners, and how dog-eat-dog it can be bidding for winner-takes-all educational contracts. I never had any argument with Malc about that. And wish-lists require resources!

When I said that I don't have confidence in DSPr's plans for the future, I mean those kind of essential business compromises being unpredictable, not to demean Malc's personal integrity (granted, it was a poor choice of words - I have a bad habit of putting my point across more strongly than I mean to). I wouldn't have worked so closely with him as a tester for as long as I did if I didn't realise that a developer's perspective is very different from mine as a user. And he was kind enough to forgive me for some of the nasty things I said at the height of the SM forum shut-down (I resigned as a moderator so that I didn't have to ban myself!) I still wish Malc well.

As for my "what if" dreaming - that's at least partly motivated by still enjoying using FS just as it is and seeing the potential in its concept. It's always easier to criticise the ones we love because we're so much more familiar with them, that's all! Well, that and being greedy and slowly turning into a grumpy old man!

Please don't misunderstand me though: My post was not directed at you, but at us as a community. Every once in a while I read some (from my point of view) arrogant posts that go something like this "What? Still no 64 bit? DSPR is a piece of..."

It hurts literally to read those posts, because I don't get over the point, that those people don't really care. They just want to bitch. And when I saw this topic here I just took the opportunity to write my 2 cents more for the comm than to you or the op.

Having said that, I totally agree to all you wrote to me. I too enjoy using FS and would love to see it in a broader light. And DSPR did make stupid decisions. And there is still so much I would change, if I were in charge. The whole sales model for example. I don't want to know how many potential customers went straight away after reading that they only buy a 1 year licence, or invest 100s without getting an update. Financial success would be a follow-up from a well-known, widely spread software. You would do that with way lower prices, and later selling "add-ons", for example.
I would also hope for a re-introducing of lockable modules. That's a very personal hope. I've done quite a few Ruby solutions for standard issues, or far-reaching modules, I spent years on to realize. But I don't share them here, because there are so many lurkers, sucking everything without ever contributing to the community. I would love to give Spogg a few modules he could make very good use of, but don't, because his awesome plugins are always shipped with the schematic included. I could use a few Euros as well, so selling modules would be an awesome opportunity, not just for me.

I'll stop here. My point is, we all share the love for Flowstone and the hope it could get a greater audience, but the past years' development taught me to be humble and just be happy for what we currently get, because it is more than the alternative.

@tulamide
Thank you for saying my plugins are awesome! I’m gonna need a bigger hat

A big part of my pleasure is sharing my work so others can be inspired and do better than me. Another benefit is that I have, on occasions, been offered much better solutions than I adopted. So it’s a win-win (I hope).

If was into making commercial products, the schematics would be secret (like Adam’s wonderful Viper, which I’d love to look at so I could learn from and steal everything ).

The downside of locking is that we would then go towards the SynthEdit model. When I tried it out, before I tried SynthMaker, I quickly became aware that you had to pay for the "good stuff" that others had made. One of the many things I initially loved about our community is the open sharing philosophy we seem to have.

Cheers

Spogg

Spogg wrote:@tulamide
If was into making commercial products, the schematics would be secret (like Adam’s wonderful Viper, which I’d love to look at so I could learn from and steal everything ).

See? That's why Adam gets all of my good stuff

Spogg wrote:The downside of locking is that we would then go towards the SynthEdit model. When I tried it out, before I tried SynthMaker, I quickly became aware that you had to pay for the "good stuff" that others had made. One of the many things I initially loved about our community is the open sharing philosophy we seem to have.

I can't follow the thought. The fact that modules would be lockable (again, they were in the past), doesn't force anyone to actually lock them. It is just an addition. And if I feel my intellectual property should only be shared with specific people and not with any lurkers, that's a way to do it, without interfering in the open change of other schematics at all.

Though obviously not against folks profiting from their efforts (I certainly don't give my paintings away), I guess I just have a really, really hard time imagining that selling locked modules within this teensy community would result in anything resembling significant income.

Obviously the case of a commercial product is an entirely different story.

.

tulamide wrote:

Spogg wrote:The downside of locking is that we would then go towards the SynthEdit model. When I tried it out, before I tried SynthMaker, I quickly became aware that you had to pay for the "good stuff" that others had made. One of the many things I initially loved about our community is the open sharing philosophy we seem to have.

I can't follow the thought. The fact that modules would be lockable (again, they were in the past), doesn't force anyone to actually lock them. It is just an addition. And if I feel my intellectual property should only be shared with specific people and not with any lurkers, that's a way to do it, without interfering in the open change of other schematics at all.

Yes good point. An option doesn't mean a compulsion. Plus, at this point we have so much good stuff to play with the occasional paid-for locked module may not be such a bad thing. So you've changed my mind!

Cheers

Spogg

MichaelBenjamin wrote:for a maximum of cleaned up schematics example i'd recommend to download trogluddites soopa loopa - i havent got a link, but it's the best schematic that i saw (SM times, but i guess it's still available). trogluddite is certainly the beast of the best in tidy and clean SM schematics.

Just did a quick search through the archive stuff I've hoovered up, found 5-6 different versions of it as it evolved...will take a good look later once all my brain cells are firing.

Thanks.

Spogg wrote:The downside of locking is that we would then go towards the SynthEdit model. When I tried it out, before I tried SynthMaker, I quickly became aware that you had to pay for the "good stuff" that others had made.

(My memories of trying SynthEdit are a decade old so bear with me.) As I recall, one of the things I liked about it was that it had a defined API and an SDK: it was possible to code new primitives in C/C++ that were indistinguishable from factory primitives. Whether that's a bug or a feature is certainly debatable, but there was a bit less of an "arcane lore" factor than I'm experiencing here.

IMHO, one middle-ground for the whole locking-module question would be a system where there are two functionally identical versions available, free and paid. The only difference between the two would be that the paid version would allow locking of modules and the free version would enforce a "Created With Flowstone" logo on the front panel of exported EXEs and VSTs, or at least a startup splash panel to that effect. That covers the IP protection issue for those who want/need it, while keeping the tool visible within the community, AKA "spread the word".